+5 votes
329 views
by (31 points)
edited by

(1) Recently, we had a question on how to obtain an item that is curretly impossible to be obtained. (2) When I noticed the question, someone had already given an incorrect answer and this person's answer was chosen as best answer!

(3) Given the potentially, highly abusive precedent this could cause, I flagged the question describing the reasons. However, the person who posted the question based on incorrect assumptions has enough reputation points to review flagged posts and unflagged their own question.

(4) Immediately, the comments explaining the mistakes started to receive downvotes. The only person who has the minimun level of knowledge regarding the question began to be retaliated. In other words, users with enough reputation points chose false information rather than the truth.

(1) What prevents someone from posting questions for every single item listed on the Unobtainable Items page from the English TibiaWiki and randomly choosing incorrect answers as best answers?

Summary of issues related to this question:

  • How to deal with...
  1. ... questions based on incorrect assumptions such as asking how to obtain an unobtainable item? (Should How to ask a good question? and/or What questions should be avoided? be changed in order to approach this point?)
  2. ... incorrect answers chosen as best answers?
  3. ... people unflagging their own posts ignoring the reasons given on the flag?
  4. ... truth being downvoted while false information being upvoted?
by (105 points)
edited by
+2
1. <still weighting the arguments pros and cons of it>. It could shut down potential discoveries, updates from the people.  Possibly an option of closing the question as "confirmed bug/overseeing in the game" if it is really the case?
2. Thought of it some time ago. Found Elliotris https://meta.tibiaqa.com/1500/is-there-any-possibility-to-change-best-aswer-in-old-question?show=1500#q1500 (you might be interested interested in that). The issue re-appears also with old questions where the authors are not active on TibiaQA anymore. Moderators have power to choose best answer, but I do not think they use it (not sure about changing either). I personally downvote wrong question and upvote the correct one like here https://www.tibiaqa.com/10021/is-it-possible-to-make-a-ring-of-ending-in-the-arena?show=10021#q10021 . But there should be option to flag/ veto the answer/decision. Also editing the whole answer just because it was the best at that time- people will loose 10 or more for the sake of 1 point just because someone is not active anymore? If it is a minor think- sure. Of course , I would edit it- but not if something is major.
3. Totally agree. Should not be happening.
4. I do not know why you been downvoted (I guess someone got offended in process of explaining and flagging), you been speaking your opinion and raising potential issue. Previously it costed you points to downvote someone's answers and questions- as it was abused by the people (envy or no reason to downvote)- but I think it was disabled (tried just now and did not consumed my points) because people stopped downvote- just not to lose their points.

** May I suggest to do screenshot of what we were discussing and post it here, so we can hide our comments? This question become popular for wrong reasons.
by (31 points)
Oh, I wasn't watching for activity on this question. I just saw your comment. What do you mean? Do you mean to "save" our comments on the other questions by taking screenshots of them, then hiding them in order to remove downvotes? If that's the case, I don't think I should do it. That's a clear abuse of downvote and unflag rights that should be investigated by the fansite staff.
by (105 points)
edited by
+1
I meant more that our conversation/argumentation should be here not there. Why?
- This is the right place to highlight potential abuse, things not being right, suggestions etc; - we went there "out of topic"
- question is a good example for your argument, however, if whole conversation happens there it looks for any outsider like you are picking up on it/ on the author. The author is being "victimized" and being pity (Hunter of Dragoes bully me, halp :( ) and people start to upvote question to support "poor" author. If you have not noticed, when you downvoted, someone else upvoted. I cannot view how many upvoted and downvoted has Question but i think it has 2 downvoted and like 4 upvotes currently where it started with 2 upvotes. You can also notice that people took it too personally and too far later on;
- The question get more views or likes because of the attention your brought, (from 60 views question went up to 200); Views are calculated for the contest so your "this question is not good" did the opposite effect of what you were trying to achieve;-)
So, You made this question popular for wrong reasons as in- you raised the issue and people got interested of what you writing.
- as I mention- there is a contest happening, the question is a potential candidate. Please read "The CMs and fansite admins will vote for their favorite questions from the top 6". Not sure If it they mean TibiaQa admins, or all fansite's admins, but... you can figure theories and conspiracies coming out of it.
I usually try to less flag (unless it is clearly a duplicate or speculative question) during contest and remain neutral to give a chance to win to everyone. If something is wrong I am bringing it afterwords.
Changing rules during the contest might make it invalid and bring lots of complaints. Repercussions are far more advanced than normally.

4 Answers

+5 votes
by (2,885 points)

Thanks for raising those points, Hunter. They are all quite important.

1. Let's make sure to analyze the validity of questions separately from the correctness of the answers. In my view "How to obtain item X?" is a perfectly valid question, whether the item is extremely common, rare, or unobtainable at all. There's always a correct answer to this question, whether that answer is known or not at this point in time. Moreover, many more users could be interested in this topic as well. A good answer for the unobtainable item could state that there are no known ways to obtain the item and list all the ways to obtain the item that were tried or checked so far (or any other reasoning or research). Severe cases of spamming or intentional massive provision of incorrect answers can be brought to moderators and the TQA community via TQA Meta.

2. There are a number of tools that can be used. Incorrect answers can and should be downvoted. You can also contact the question owner or the player providing the answer that you believe the answer might not be correct. Even if the answer stays at the top, it already has the comment attached explaining the doubt and the future reader can consider it. It also helps to post a correct answer (if you know it). Stale questions or abuse cases can be brought to the TQA community via the TQA meta for individual review. I'll work on updating the Help Center to provide instructions on how to approach answers we believe are incorrect.

3. Completely agreed. The owner of the post shouldn't be the one to review the flag. The flag system has more flaws and should be revamped completely, however that's a larger piece of work.

4. While I don't agree with the downvotes, I could see how other users may perceive your first comment as a bit too aggressive, especially that the question itself is fine. Some of the comments below aren't much better for that matter. Another possibility is that users might express their disagreement with your flag and statements that the question is wrong, while it's valid under TQA guidelines.

Thanks again for taking the time to bring it to our attention! I really appreciate your comments and insights.

Best regards,
Sebastian

by (31 points)
edited by
Well, I have said this in comments before, but nobody answered this directly: The reported question also fits into the category of "already answered questions". Shouldn't it be removed, then?
Given the recent history of the OP unflagging it and the retaliation I got in return, I won't flag the same question again (for the same reason).
by (31 points)
Issues on the same question (and probably involving the same people) keep emerging. ~1 hour after I posted the correct answer, someone else wrote a very short, direct answer which approaches less content than mine and people started downvoting my answer and upvoting the duplicate answer.
by (105 points)
+1
couldn't resist. https://imgur.com/PCJfojm
by (467 points)
edited by
1- I have the right answer (Chosen as ''best answer'' in certain moment) and I explain why I think the Item was a Creature Product and nothing more. The time give me right, the answer dont have nothing wrong (Format, source, links, etc...) and I keep 2 downvotes. The answer itself dont deserve, me as user well you are free.

2- From the start your point was, this item is unobtainable.
And you have 3 arguments:
- You check all market in all servers to see the history.
- You talk with all players in all server to see if they dont loot it.
- ''The only person who has the minimun level of knowledge regarding the question began to be retaliated.''
The last argument feed the troll inside of me, sorry but no sorry.

3- On this point with the item as creature product, all your comments about ''this item is unobtainable.'' are totally WRONG and can be downvoted one by one.

4- Any way I gonna deleted my troll comments. I really recommend you deleted yours (So the downvotes don't affect you).

5- And you can believe me or check by yourself but I don't like send downvotes (Even when I say bad/wrong QAs). This was the second case as I remember (The first one was something similar with aggressive user).

6- Also you are right on some points, like user saying this items is to the addon and I know why you are right and I don't downvote it. Also im sure im not the only one who downvoted you OH GREAT LORD OF WISE. kkkkk sorry I deleted the rest XD
+3 votes
by (142 points)

So my thoughts on this are as follows:

1)
I see no issue with asking questions on how to obtain an unobtainable item. In this example, after an update when someone sees a new item they like and want to know how to get it. There is no guarantee that someone checks every fansite or that the information on those fansites is accurate. They may just think someone hasn't updated the info yet and want to know for themselves. Answering the question with "This item is currently unobtainable." is a perfectly valid answer. I know it is harder to prove when something is false but sometimes the correct answer is "No, it can't be done." or "No, you can't obtain it.".

There is a similar question How to obtain Gilded Eldritch equipment? that has no accepted answer yet. The only answer is a YouTube video pointing to someone dropping a piece of equipment. It can be assumed they are all dropped by The Brainstealer but looking at Wiki all that information isn't entered for those items yet.

As for someone creating a question for every item on Wiki's unobtainable list I don't believe that would be against the rules of TibiaQA exactly but should be frowned upon if someone is just spamming questions that they seem to know the answer to already to farm points (though creating and answering your own question is valid for sharing knowledge). Also, TibiaQA and Wiki are separate fansites. The rule of TibiaQA in What questions should be avoided? is "Easily answered by official manual". There is nothing mentioned about info on other fansites. Someone could be new to Tibia and this is the first fansite they are taking advantage of. It is common knowledge for most Tibians that Soft Boots come from the PoI quest. Asking "How to get Soft Boots" is a perfectly valid question though for someone to ask on TibiaQA. 

As for people accepting incorrect answers on unobtainable items that is the nature of TibiaQA. That is more an issue with people posting low quality answers. You are asking the community to provide you with information that you generally do not know yourself and are hoping it is accurate. If you ask "What is the best damage type to use when hunting Dragons?" and someone answers "Fire", that is not the questions fault. Anyone providing an answer should do their best to make sure the information they are providing is accurate. Using at least one source is always helpful, multiple sources can be better to confirm the information. TibiaWiki is an excellent resource which is why I use it as a source for a lot of my answers even when I already know my answer is correct. Providing a source just adds credibility to an answer. The issue with that is not all fansites are as accurate with information as Wiki. Especially after an update many fansites can have incorrect details based on assumptions or things that may have changed since Test Server.

2)
With the point of incorrect answers being chosen as best answers. I know I have had a similar conversation with someone a while ago about this around old questions with no accepted answer that have correct answers supplied. Maybe there should be a tool to allow moderators to mark an answer as the accepted answer if it receives enough upvotes, the question is old enough, or some other metric.

3)
I agree this can definitely be an issue if someone is abusing this feature. A user should probably not be allowed to remove a flag on their own question.

4)
As for this, hopefully people would be using the voting system reliably to promote the correct content. The one downside with a voting system is occasionally people will use it to down vote someone because they disagree with them or they don't like them. There is nothing stopping a user from downvoting good content as it is opinion based. Hopefully this wouldn't become a larger issue but if the same users are regularly doing it maybe some action could be taken?

+2 votes
by (761 points)
edited by
  1. You never know if the answer is out there! Even though it may be clear it's "unobtainable" like Idontknow said, it's fun to see the changes or see what we can discover with time. I mean, if all someone asked was how to get x off of the whole wiki list then that would be an issue.
  2. I wish we could update the best answer, even with the person who asked being an "anon" I see no reason as to not. Not every new user is going to know to see the comments or have time to read all answers.
  3. I think for the mods to see a history of who flagged/unflagged if it's already not tracked. Maybe there should be a rule that only mods or users who aren't the ones getting their post flagged can unflag a post. I think I read this idea somewhere else on meta before.
  4. I don't agree with this, this has happened on some questions I answered before with no explanation. I also have seen this happen to others.

Also to add to this, something I really wanted to push was to make duplicate posts not have points. We shouldn't reward a duplicate post. This is really not fair, something I've brought up before. This will maybe persuade users to research a bit more before posting.

by (31 points)
It is really hard to believe that two of the most active users haven't seen the original post here one day and a few days later one of them created the question that had already been answered on that post, then the other person answered it. It's not like there were months/years between duplicates. Not fiding the original question is not a reason to turn a blind eye on rules. Rules exist for a clear reason: without them, situation turn into chaos. I get your point of the duplicate rule making it hard for new users to write acceptable questions, but we're not talking about new users here, we're talking about users who have over a thousand points who have been caught misusing their unflagging and downvote rights. Investigation and punishment are necessary.
Thanks for talking about the email. This is actually the first time I hear reports should be sent via email. So far, people have only told me to use this meta.
by (105 points)
+2
If you are refering to Daissy and Trululu- they are not most active users at the present. They have earn points in the past, but they do not log it regularly. It will also not show as duplicate ( in section "Before proceeding, please check your question was not asked already" when you composing the question) if you are doing looping of the question.
I am not saying it is correct, but it can happen.
Look at my duplicate question: https://www.tibiaqa.com/25365/when-i-will-be-able-to-receive-extra-prey-hunting-task-points  - If you go for ask question and type what I wrote it will not show you the question which is duplicated. If i type some key words- I really have to scroll down to find it. I am just saying- I am just saying it will be happening. I agree- If it is abused - it should be flagged or some warnings sent over.

Re email: tibiaqa.adm@gmail.com found on https://www.tibiaqa.com/code-of-conduct
Feedback form : https://www.tibiaqa.com/feedback found on  https://www.tibiaqa.com/help-center
by (31 points)
+1
Thanks for your input, again. Even though the question you used as an example wouldn't trigger the original question, it was still (correcty) set as a dulicate. I really don't know why it is taking so much time for some action to be done to the question I reported days ago.
by (467 points)
Idontknow, you are right on that. im not very active users (My most is just read the Q/A not making it).

''Responsibility'' for a duplicate question is:
- First, the user who make the question itself. You need make a research before making a new Question (To check if it is duplicated question or not).
- Second, the user who WANT make a research and see if the question is duplicated or not. As user you can flag the duplicated question but, do the search to confirm or not it, is something totally free and it is not mandatory (because you are not the one with the main responsibility).
- Third, the staff of TibiaQA.

As a regular User, I have the OPTION to make search to before answer a question to see if it is duplicated or not but again is a OPTION.
+2 votes
by (224 points)

I would comment the whole issue earlier it but I believe that after considering all of the input made here some days ago, we can also try this to appease to all parts involved, specially @Hunter of Dragoes demand (it is a suggestion to be DISCUSSED and maybe used if such issue is brought again in the future):

  • Why not adopting a tag for "unobtainable"? This way you can simply skim over questions right away and ignore or dive in a tag reuniting unobtainable items.

Of course, remember that sometimes an item may change it's status and be a collectable after a while. So it would demand edits efforts from time to time (but keep in mind that such edits generate points to users), as it happened with the Old Royal Diary.

It is a simplistic suggestion by me but if we get even more people who would like to avoid or even focus on more obtainable items rather than, let's say, one of the beautiful Ice Cream Cones impossible to get in Tibia, the tag would be a way to skip such question.

Overall, @Hunter third topic raised about the flag system is a relevant input but I don't see any problem about questions related to "impossible" items. The tag adoption is a suggestion also that benefits people who like to see which items are no obtainable (and yes, there is a public in Tibia for such things). Apart from that, downvotes are tricky and users have a big power on their hands... I would personally use it less frequently but belligerence among users can cause conflicts. Tibia QA supports and regulates a good use of downvotes but we kind of leave a lot of power with the judgement of our users. If there is an abuse of such votes, there will be penalties after detection.

Folks, this is not a new tag to be adopted, I just posted it as a possible resource to be discussed and maybe used in the future.

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