How to approach downvoting and content quality?

Question

Hello, Community.

Our recent announcement on the changes to the downvoting system has brought up a lot of constructive criticism and feedback. If there's one lesson learned from this, it is that we should announce plans to make such changes in advance and give you an opportunity to raise your concerns. Please be sure that this has been noted.

A lot of valid concerns have been brought up, so this seems like a good opportunity to continue the discussion on those points. They include

• The cost of a downvote (-1 rep point) feels like a punishment to users that want to help point problematic posts
• Users feel nervous pointing posts that are wrong or incorrect
• Users are afraid they might get downvoted back for no valid reason if they downvote the post they consider wrong

Those are all valid points and any changes made to the downvotes should take the above into consideration. Some more observations that were made on the site

• The number of downvotes given for the valid reason (incorrect answer, not well-researched question, etc.) is already relatively low
• Partially due to the above, it's easy to quickly gain reputation points by mass-posting incorrect/unconfirmed answers and this should never be the case
• Users that post good quality content are often not rewarded well enough or they are rewarded on a similar level that other users who put much less effort into their post quality
• Users that often provide high-quality content should be rewarded with reputation points that unlock more moderation privileges for them (so that those users that provide good content have more impact on the site)
• Users that participate a lot, but provide low-quality questions and incorrect answers should not unlock more moderation privileges until they improve the quality of their posts

Taking all of the above into consideration, I wonder what are your thoughts and perhaps ideas on what we can change so that we address those issues. Some ideas were already mentioned and they are

• Remove the -1 rep pt cost of downvoting
• Down-vote privilege unlocked for more experienced users (how many rep pts? 100? 200? 500? ...?)
• Down-voting requires a comment with explanation (won't that discourage users from downvoting and increase the fear of getting down-voted back?)
• Higher penalty for each down vote received? (By how much?)

We would like to welcome any additional feedback and ideas you might have. Since this topic is very important to us, we will reward the best suggestions, ideas, and comments with up to +50 rep points on TibiaQA and +50 rep points on Meta TibiaQA

Thank you for your dedication!

Best regards,
the TibiaQA.com team

Answer 1

Since it was mainly me who criticized the newest changes, I feel obligated to present some ideas how to fix the voting system.

*note that sadly I have no idea about this platform abilities :(

POINT-MAKERS

The main problem is that TibiaQA grants people who I used to call „point-makers”. I mean people who are very active, but unfortunately their main intention isn’t improving TibiaQA’s database, but make 4000 (soon 5000) points as soon as possible. While there are a lot of users who could be active, who sometimes visit this site, but they feel blocked by SPAM of formerly mentioned.

Would be nice to give some examples:

Since I don’t want to refer to the nicknames, but to the content of the question, I won’t put the link.

- Is it possible to loot more than one Silver Raid Token during the raid?

- In my opinion it is possible. I looted 3 tokens!

In my opinion this question is... really low-quality. Where in Tibia is any sign, any indication thait it is not possible? I could ask similar question "Is it possible to loot 2 Magic Plate Armors during one hunt? Because you know guys, IT IS VERY RARE".

Author of this question got points for the question, for the answer, 2 up-votes (for the question and answer) and also points for the best answer.

In the meanwile:

https://www.tibiaqa.com/9877/are-the-summons-of-zushuka-disappearing-after-killing-the-boss?show=9877#q9877

To answer this question correctly, I needed some experience with Zushuka. In my opinion my answers is better than chosen as the best one. I didn’t get even 1 up-vote.

Solution:

There is no perfect solution. You won’t make anybody to up-vote correct and valuable answers. Giving extra points for up-voting will cause users to abuse it. In my opinion the only way to solve it is that moderators should be more active in reading site content and giving fair votes (both up-votes and down-votes). I mean that greater part of votes should be given by moderation. You could implement additional kind of voting system only for moderation – for example moderator can give up-votes for 5/7/9 points depends how much he likes the answer (the way how to grant valuable content) and down-votes for -1/-3/-5 points (-1 or -3 for low-value content, but not strictly incorrect).

Maybe when users will be 100% sure, that their post won’t be missed – they will be more active and think twice if they really want to put some low-value answers.

FLAGS

It is not about down-votes and recent changes, but I think it is really important when we are talking about quality of the content. I noticed that because of lack of ideas for new questions people sometimes ask about things that you can easily check via any WIKI. I mean questions about the loot from creatures.

"I like the look of item X, how can I get it?" First thing I do is to check it on WIKIs or Tibiopedia. There is an info which creature drops it.

Isn't it "easily answered by official maual"? Yes, it is. So why my flags are ignored? Why this kind of questions are granted with additional points?

DOWN-VOTES

Since new system was implemented I had to remove some down-votes for completely wrong answers. Only a few, because I can not find other downvoted answers. I also feel really powerless when I see wrong answer. I simply don’t want to give down-votes and loose my points. It’s only points, but it really take a lot of time to gather some points for valuable content, not SPAM.

Solution:

Remove the -1 reputation point cost of downvoting is necessay to make this system works correctly. As long as users loose points for this, they won’t down-vote anything, even the worst answer ever. And downvotes are important, to bring the balance, right?

We’ve got a flag system which is absolutely anonymous. You choose the flag button, write or choose the reason and wait for aproving. In my opinion downvote system would work the same. Users choose down-vote button, write the reason of downvoting and moderator approves it or not. One question/answer could be downvoted multiply by different users. Information with reason of downvote stays visible forever.

This solution guarantee that down-votes are fair and there won’t be any down-votes given back, because it would be fully anonymous.

The idea to require more experience to have privilage to downvote any other user is good and bad. I have mixed feelings about it. There are users with not many points here, who rather read than write (so they have less than 500 points) but it doesn’t make them braintess spammers of down-votes. They judge content fairly. On the other hand it would help to avoid abusing down-voting by not experienced and malicious users. But I think that my idea about down-votes system (based on flag system) solves this problem anyway.

Higher penalty for each down-vote received?

But why? I think that -4 points was painful enough to know that next time I should make better content :P In my opinion everything was okay in this aspect of the system.

As I already mentioned would be nice if moderation have a chance to judge also quality of the content by using different points scale for votes. Why only moderation? Because again -1 point would be abused.

Comments

That was my question about silver raid tokens. You could paste a link, I don't have problem with it :) I don't think this question is low quality.  Of course, there is a chance for x2 MPA drop while hunting, but there is no (rather) chance for x2 amazon shield from the orc raid at Femor Hills. Silver raid token is a different kind of item than normal hunting monsters. It isn't obvious to me that there may drop more, so I asked about it. I didn't see anyone deny it, but I didn't know it was possible either. I was surprised when it happened to me. It is sad for me what you think about it. TibiaQA is also a community, apparently someone wanted to be nice and appreciate my question/answers. Unfortunately, "LIKES" aren't indicator of wisdom. Your answer about Zushuka is good, I'll give You like for it. You should be proud of yourself, but you should also be kind to others. Each of us is involved in the same way, everything is fair - unless otherwise admin takes care or negative points. Sometimes it depends on luck how many votes we have, but each of us is equal here. Remember that.

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You've made some interesting points. Great post. With your statement about not getting any points for your answer to Summons of Zushuka, I wonder if the reason you didn't get any votes was because other than those linked to the post through comments/question/answer, the rest of the community would not have known you had supplied an answer to a 3 month old question ( I see thats changed now though :) )

Perhaps you've highlighted a need for new answers to bring a question back to the top of the forum?

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Thanks for appreciate my ideas Severblade! :) New posts of course bring the question back to the first page (top of the forum). It works exactly like it should. I think that people just barely up-vote posts of others. I'm trying to up-vote if I like the answer, but still I could do more, I missed a lot of very good content. Sometimes I'm even too lazy to read some questions. Definitely I could do more. So I think if others have the same like me - then the only solution to keep the vote system active, even during less activity among the users, is to increase activity of moderation (especially in case of voting).

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I kinda agree with your thoughts on point-makers, but I also wouldn't discourage questions that may seem obvious to you. After all, TibiaQA is meant to serve the whole community - not only those that are very experienced. I think the main issue is that those "easy" questions and answers are usually rewarded the same as well-researched questions and answers that someone spent quite some time preparing. This discourages investing more time into researching questions and answers since the reward is usually the same. This links to the points that I posted in OP:
- It's easy to quickly gain reputation points by mass-posting incorrect/unconfirmed answers and this should never be the case
- Users that post good quality content are often not rewarded well enough or they are rewarded on a similar level that other users who put much less effort into their post quality
Other than contests that reward high-quality posts, I don't have good ideas on how to shift this.

On Flags: TibiaWiki or other fansites are not the official game manual. Only content from tibia.com is treated as such since information on other fansites can be incorrect.

Your idea on enabling selected users to have higher variety of rewarding posts is interesting. Those that have more experience with the site could have a higher impact on the content. I also start to like the idea of having an anonymous way to tell users what's wrong with their posts. After the feedback I received, it seems that many users may be scared to post it openly due to fear of getting down-voted and so.

Thank you for extensive feedback. I added 50 rep points to your accounts!

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@Ellotris Guardian
"Linking to a trusted source like another fansite (…)” -> source: https://www.tibiaqa.com/answering-how-to-answer
Since other OFFICIAL fansites are called in TibiaQA rules as „trusted” - that’s why I consider these kind of questions as easily answered by official manual.
And the thing that you answered about flags… It’s quite controversial. I have very mixed feelings about it. I’m simply afraid of abusing it to make some SPAM again. If other fansites are not treated like trusted source, then according to the rules users may ask literally about everything, for example „What is a Ham?” „Which monsters drop Magic Plate Armor?”, „I like item named Bonelord Shield, how can I get it?” because you won’t find it on tibia.com so easily. Well, in my opinion these questions absolutely don’t improve the database on tibiaQA and to be honest I would be ashamed to ask about such easy to find things. On the other hand somebody else with hundreds of levels and years of experience may ask about really obvious things and say „It wasn’t obvious for me, I’m not so experienced!” I’m really lost about where is the line between low value questions and a good questions if according to your words there is no reliable source except the official tibia.com.

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Note how the wording is different in both cases and that it's different on purpose. Flags specifically mention the official game manual, while our guidelines for answering mention any trusted source. This rule was created just to prevent questions that can literally be answered with "Check here". Some examples include:
 - How many Open PvP servers are there in Europe?
 - How many houses are there in Carlin?
 - What is the incantation for spell "challenge"?
Of course, there may be many questions that are technically valid under all our rules, but they still might not be that useful to the community. If you feel that question shows absolutely zero research effort and it would be way easier to check Wiki or any other resource, you are free to downvote the question: "Don't hesitate to vote posts down if you feel that they are not useful to the community". We don't have a problem keeping such questions in our Q&A base if they are not directly answered by the official manual since other fansites can be wrong as you often like to mention. At the same time, if they are easy questions, without research effort, they likely shouldn't generate reputation points for the author either.
I hope this helps understand which posts are not wanted here at all, and which are fine to keep. Flags should be used only for posts that need to be removed or closed. For all other posts, you can use your votes.
Finally, don't be afraid to flag posts when in doubt and explain your reasoning. You can also post on Meta TibiaQA to ask about the specific case/start the discussion on the fate of a post or to get an explanation on why your flag was retracted.

Answer 2

• Remove the -1 rep pt cost of downvoting

I like this idea now that it's been implemented for a couple of days I don't see everyone downvoting instantly without leaving a comment. A lot of players have been helping others and I feel like it's more of a friendly atmosphere.

However, it is a bit of punishment to the players that want to make sure others are aware this shouldn't be the best answer. Maybe we can do it where if the moderators don't agree with the downvote they left the point on but if they do agree with the downvote then remove the point? A point is a lot considering this is what we get for posting a question or answer so maybe points could be adjusted for this reason. Maybe we can adjust the point system to 2 points for a question or answer (but I'm against this in a way because of those who received the owls already, and I think it will be easy for others to obtain the owl which can possibly cause a downgrade in quality of answers/questions. This would be good if you upped the points needed to get the Owl again then this would be suitable)

I just think it shouldn't be valued as much as us actually posting a question or answer. Or what you could do is maybe implement where it's a half a point to downvote someone?

• Down-vote privilege unlocked for more experienced users (how many rep pts? 100? 200? 500? ...?)

I think 1,000 points on TibiaQA really shows that you're experienced with how the site works. This is when I felt comfortable with upvoting and downvoting because I knew how to use these tools.

• Down-voting requires a comment with explanation (won't that discourage users from downvoting and increase the fear of getting down-voted back?)

An anonymous comment, like when you flag a post it's anonymous who flags it so maybe we can make it like this system.

• Higher penalty for each down vote received?

 I don't think a higher penalty for a downvote is necessary. I think the loss of points right now is enough for anyone to second guess what they post.

(This next one is a suggestion and wasn't in your original bullet list)

• Down-voting should get closely moderated and maybe can be sent for approval if the moderators think it's a valid downvote.

I've seen some questions or answers in the past (unsure of specific ones now) that get downvoted and I don't see any reversal or investigation. Also, maybe going into past situations, I know some users who edit their posts after they've been downvoted, for example, the downvotes will still remain if the person who downvoted doesn't check back to see if it's correct. Maybe we can go in and check all the downvotes if possible to see if they're valid? Also, now that I think of it I know when I downvote someone I don't get any notification if they edit their post. Maybe this could be implemented or some sort of way we can see all of our downvotes (received and gave out) so we can manually go through them ourselves?

Comments

Nice post Shawtay. Ill try and come back when I wake up in the morning and post my thoughts

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Thanks for the extensive feedback, Shawtay! I added 50 rep points to your Meta and TibiaQA account!

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Thank you both , hope I helped :)

Answer 3

I wont do a point by point as I think I pretty much agree with shawtay on their comments except the one thing

Down-voting requires a comment with explanation (won't that discourage users from downvoting and increase the fear of getting down-voted back?)

The suggestion shawtay makes is a good one for anonymous comments with a downvote. But is it needed? If every downvote requires a comment, then irrelevant or malicious downvotes can easily be spotted or dealt with. And if those being downvoted know who downvoted them, they can start a dialogue with that person in the comments or wall to wall, to improve the answer.

I also have an additional question

If someone give out a downvote then remove it, can they then upvote the post? And does removing the downvote remove the -1 point?

Been meaning to ask this for a few days but maybe it fits better here

Comments

"If someone give out a downvote then remove it, can they then upvote the post? And does removing the downvote remove the -1 point?" Yes to both. You can cange your vote to up-vote and the -1 will be removed if you change the vote.

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Many thanks for that answer

Answer 4

Im one of the most older users who asked by changes with the downvote, so this opportunity to discuss this is really good option. At the momment I know this not affect me at all but I really care about this page.

• Remove the -1 rep pt cost of downvoting

To me the problem is no make a downvote, the problem is when a user make a downvte just because I DONT LIKE YOUR Q/A (Or for sabotaging other users).

Take this by example:

https://www.tibiaqa.com/1388/which-raids-appear-in-kazordoon

A valid question (Without breaking rules), with a properly a full information answer, and this have a downvote. Just because, the user dont like it. No matter the effort or time.

At the same time, the idea (TO ME) of downvote to me is not to express if you like or not a Q/A (Is too irrelevant) is to mark a wrong Q/A. So if you use this properly, the re is no reason to by punishment by it.

• Down-vote privilege unlocked for more experienced users (how many rep pts? 100? 200? 500? ...?)

Points are not a sign of a user's ability. But, maybe a little upgrade just to give the user the time to understand the use os a tool properly can be a good option.

• Down-voting requires a comment with explanation.

This to me is the best solution, is a chance to the user who got the downvote to renew their information, send a properly Q/A and get a some points.

• Higher penalty for each down vote received? (By how much?)

Just dont do taht, -4 points is enough.

To the end, I dont know why?. From time in time I see some users make angry, because they dont have the points than they think deserved. And I don't see it necessary to discredit others, they don't give you points for that. Dude keep calm, and keep working.