+5 votes
294 views
by (2,885 points)
retagged by

Hello everyone,

I've started this topic to allow us to discuss how can the voting and flagging be changed so that the quality of the content on TibiaQA is improved. A similar topic has been raised before but concerned only the downvoting. Nevertheless, it still contains some ideas that are worth coming back to. With this discussion, I'd like to take a broader look at what changes can be made so that the quality of the content is improved. I invite you to post any ideas you have for discussion.

The common problems that are mentioned by users are following

  • Very good and correct questions and answers don't receive a lot of up-votes - this discourages users from putting a lot of effort
  • Incorrect answers are sometimes highly up-voted (likely not on purpose, but by lack of verification from voters)
  • The "best answer" is sometimes incorrect - it could be that the answer to the question has changed with one of the updates, or it was incorrect since the very beginning
  • The down-votes sometimes feel unfair - authors of posts don't understand how their posts can be improved
  • Some users feel that there are a lot of low-quality questions submitted only to farm points - this should not be the case. Low quality questions should not generate reputation points
  • Users with enough reputation points can remove flags on their own questions

Feel free to let us know if you see any other problems with the current voting, flagging, and general content quality. I'll be also posting some ideas that I already have for discussion but would love to hear from you first!

The best ideas and inputs in this topic will be rewarded with 50 reputation points on TibiaQA and TibiaQA Meta!

closed with the note: Thanks to everyone that contributed! We have awarded 50 bonus points on TibiaQA and Meta to everyone who answered with thoughts and ideas. We will be evaluating and processing the ideas. Any changes will be announced on separate topics .
by (84 points)
+1
@Shawtay, I meant some users leave soon while farmers stay until they have obtained their fansite item, then they leave, unless they give up, of course.
by (105 points)
Hi Ellotris, Maybe add part where it says that not all ideas will be added/featured as they do not fit the  website/purpose at the present- however all will be considerate and discussed with other admin members nevertheless.
by (129 points)
that's the point of this thread. discuss and share ideas and thoughs that of course not all would be implemented even if all are considered.
by (2,885 points)
+1
Thanks to everyone that contributed! We have awarded 50 bonus points on TibiaQA and Meta to everyone who answered with thoughts and ideas. We will be evaluating and processing the ideas. Any changes will be announced on separate topics :)

4 Answers

+2 votes
by (761 points)
edited by

Just throwing out ideas and my thoughts, some of which I might've repeated from other posts either by me or what I've seen in the past by other users.

How to improve flagging-

1) (As already discussed which I agree) Allow moderators/flag owners to be the only ones to remove flags. Other users can still add additional flags and remove their own, but those who are getting flagged cannot remove them.

2) Encourage all moderators to be active (can go for both flagging/voting). Please don't be mad at me but I only see 2/3 moderators active, and I noticed this going on 2 +/- years.  Also for them to set a good example by selecting the best answers to old questions especially. I really mean this with the best intentions as I know I haven't been active as I normally was due to real life.

It's pretty clear, aside from this... I thought long and hard and so far no other things come to mind.

How to improve voting-

1) Require a mandatory valid reason as to why the downvote should be applied (of course, anon like when we flag) If the downvoted user doesn't agree or edits their question, they have the ability to dispute it with a moderator.

2) Display a list of all the questions/answers/comments we downvoted so we can review and verify if the downvote is still needed.

3) Display a list of all the questions/answers/comments that got downvoted for me so I can review and verify what I need to improve on. Sometimes it's hard to see unless you browse through tons of questions and click on them yourself manually.

*About my points 2 and 3 would be cool if the list appeared as links if you clicked on the numbers in the sections of your profile where it's "Voted on, Gave Out, and Received"

4) Downvoting in comments- I have been in some debates here that got out of hand and others too. The point is it shouldn't be tolerated because then you see 10+ downvotes which is a little much and not necessary at times. Maybe we can have a limit on how much we can downvote a specific user in a day or something to prevent this? Or maybe we can dispute the downvotes. Maybe all the comments can be hidden that aren't necessary?

5) Show recently downvoted questions/answers/comments in the Moderator section. Or have a list of what's downvoted. Would be interested to see other's thoughts and debates as it's hard to go through all the questions.

6) Show what's downvoted from comments in your activity either from what's been received or what you gave out. I know this has been brought up before by other users and I completely agree!!

7) Many have already requested for outdated/wrong best answers to be replaced with the correct best answer. Either by a moderator or by a vote in TibiaQA, I couldn't agree more. Very upsetting when an anon posts a very great question that requires great research and the user isn't given his/her reward for the best answer. Like mentioned, newer users will sometimes go for the first thing they see and not review other answers or comments to ensure what their given is accurate. So with that being said x amount of days before an anon question doesn't get selected best answer this is when action should happen.

8) I could point out some questions that were already clearly answered in other suggested questions where it was obvious but then they just reword the question differently and it becomes a new..similar question. The bottom line, we all want points. All we can do is just vote fairly on what we think is a great question, everyone has different tastes. Not sure how to combat "easily answered questions by other fansites or plainly obvious questions with answers" because I have learned it's good to have questions where you don't need to go to another fansite to get the answer. But then again it is super discouraging...sorry...IDK all I know is I disagree with taking away points for posting a question/answer because not everyone will vote for you to begin with. Maybe we can have "Creativity points" given out only by mods or admin (to avoid abuse maybe decide as a team) if they see a new question that is very unique and interesting to the fansite. Maybe every week or so you can reward a user or users with extra points this way? 

+2 votes
by (105 points)
edited by

What will happen when a post gets flagged?

  •  When flagged with, the post should go to moderator queue (possibly it is already like this, cannot verify);
  •  If the question with "requires edit" flag- it goes to moderation centre and is visible for regular users/ TibiaQa community so they can gain points for improving content; (flag could be accessible to any registered user)
  •  If the question with "requires update" flag- first notification goes to the author and if not actioned/ improved (7 days period time) it goes to moderation centre and is visible for regular users/ TibiaQa community so they can gain points for improving content- additional note - updating could raise more points than editing; (flag could be accessible to any registered user)
  • When flagged for inappropriate, the post should be automatically hidden; 
  • Users with several flags for duplicate questions within short period will receive "cool- off time"/warning or the questions will have to go through moderation centre, further more penalty might by added; (new)
  • Users who unreasonably flagged (not approved by moderators) several questions, receives the cool-off time or warning with possible penalty in the future;
  • Users who answered to the question off-topic for several questions, receives the cool-off time with possible penalty in the future- also answer can be hidden/removed by moderator;
  • Only a moderator can remove or accept the flags (new) apart of edit & update flags - those two are still in hands of community
  • When flagging "Best answer" as not correct, If the best answer is not edited within 7 days, Best Answer is removed from the post giving other opportunity to others
  • the system already keeps track of the number flagged posts (Pitbull badge for example)- should focus on useful flags by user (not sure if it is happening. What I mean, only flags accepted by moderator should be counted). For certain number of useful flags, certain number of points can be assign for contributing to the website;
  • If the question was flagged but not hidden and moderator agreed to the flag, symbol of question being closed appears on the right side (not only when you visit the question or in last activity/ last questions) - for example if you search for question it does not display the lock;
  • Cool-off of downvoting should be activated after 10 down-votes not 15 (checked it just now it seems 15). Also the removing down-vote should not be on cool-down (not sure if that can be fixed though). 

 Moderators responsibility with the flagged posts 

  • Disagree with the flag (removes it with the short explanation why- this will be displayed in the history of the flagging to avoid another user repeat the process of flagging); 
  • Agree with the flag ( Closes the post and in some instances even hide or remove them from the website ). If it is not yet there, there should be a standard answers generated where the moderator can choose from. Example
    •  Opinion based and does not fit to our fansite anymore.
    •  Question closed as the feature was removed / replaced. Monster arenas (also called PvE arenas) were replaced with the Tibiadrome with the Summer Update 2021. (this is to make moderators life easy so they focus on others tasks)
  • Large numbers of unreasonable flags given, received (legit ones) and deleted posts should be supervised and also should generate warning message/ cool-off to the author - this should be observed by moderators. Moderator can decide to remove the cool-off or apply possible penalty to the user. In extreme situations, user can be banned from the site- temporarily or permanently (applicable when it happens within short period of time)- Moderators power to action this. 
  • Moderators will be more active with assigning "Best answer" for the anonymous & forgotten questions

What can authors do with flagged posts?

  • The author can edit/hide the post;
  • The author can defend the post;
  • Post which remains hidden will be deleted after 30 days automatically

New Flags:

  • Flags visible only to moderator, for example: flagging other users for exploiting, farming, suspicious activity, using holes in the system to their own benefits. This should be supported with the proof.
  • Flags ( or more like a message/poke) visible only to the author of the flagged post (also moderators)- this is in situation when you want provide contact details to discuss something and you want to keep the conversation private; (this is more a tool for users to get in touch easier) - possibly this could be more a "message" type directed to the email as in: 
    •  Message @Ellotris Guardian
    • I want to talk to this person directly and privately about their post (with possibility of writing short note about it)
  • Flags for the answers: answer to generic, answer invalid. Once agreed by moderator, those can be hidden and then removed. 
  • Flags for the Best answers: very outdated, requires updating. 

Have you consider to bring on Tiers for trust- Trust Levels? You have access to specific flags if you are in Tier 2 or 3. Levels for Trust are gained by helping new users, edits etc (not for the answers and questions posted and their upvotes) or even upvoting ( this will a.) encourage people to upvote more often, b.) contribute to recognise good answers). - That could be complicated to add though. 

Voting:

There will be more voting if you have more active users. You will have more users if website is promoted and there are certain regular activities. It is not only for the users but also for website build-up.  

You really need a community manager. I think you should offically advertise it on Tibia.com. I would also consider to close the "old" topic which you have right now as the answers below might be confusing and give an impression that you already found community manager (just start NEW one). You need a person who will get involved not only with Tibiaqa community but encourage others visit the website. You need someone to actually engage with admins of the other sites. Even to organise more contest (mini contest monthly bases without involving the main website reward). I have few ideas which might be helpful or worth considering until you find the right person (btw to be honest I think Shawtay could be a good candidate). The last two contests were with the focus on the question- which would be ok if they wouldn't be in a row. I also really think that main prize should be rewarded for quality answers. If you really want to go for best question- why not to do question of the year. But this is story for another subject. 

Extra points:

  • Original content made by users containing own research/calculations/ screenshots should be more appreciated- not copy paste from other fansites, 
  • Updating (not editing) answers;
  • Mini contest (monthly basis)
  • Consider- Translations of the questions and best answers to other languages. With the start of the top questions (most views). And no- I am not talking about translating something in the google translator to be accepted, I am talking about quality translations. It would generate more users, more views, more people reading the content and more people highlighting something is wrong. I mean- use FPoPP for Portugese translations he was doing it in for Tibiaroyal (yeah I am putting you on spot in here). Ask Tibiasula (from Tibiaroyal also) if she would be keen to take care of the Polish translations (she was a grammar beast on Tibiaroyal and would not accept shabby or google translations ever). Even If not them- there could be others interested to supervise and give a hand. 

Now, not to defend low-quality questions (easy to answer)- farming is actually not a problem- you can simply ignore them or downvote them. If someone is really persistent to post 2500 + questions (which will be very difficult without having many duplicate or without any type of warning or downvotes)- then wow good luck with that. It is not so easy to generate new questions, as many of them have been already asked. 

We actually proved that the issue is with people "ganging up" and liking someone's questions or answers just because I like this person (boosting). Let's downvote because we do not like this person and we envy for some reason. I will not mention that some people will not upvote questions just because there is contest going on and they will loose the opportunity by giving this upvote. Now this is difficult to control - innit? 

Another thing which can be complicated: Adding possibility for anonymous people upvote/downvote ( or more likely - Was this answer helpful? / Was this question interesting? )- which will not generate points for users. 

Bottom line is: The system is not really bad. Small adjustments will help to improve. Divide responsibilities for moderators and users. More serious should be with moderators, less serious like editing leave for users so they can still gain points. Introduce Warning system and penalties.

+2 votes
by (142 points)

The ideas that I think would be helpful (some have already been mentioned by others) are:

  • A User shouldn't be able to remove a flag from their own question
  • Downvoting a question/answer should come with a comment as to why you are downvoting. If the content is edited you should be notified so you can review it to see if you want to remove your downvote
  • I'm not sure if it is necessary to be able to downvote comments. I feel like this is generally used when a User disagrees with someone else. (I'm not sure how I feel about this exactly. It is helpful as well to be able to downvote incorrect information that is being supplied in the comment section)
  • I think a section would be helpful that would allow general users to interact with older questions (maybe >1 Month) without answers selected as best. Some way to interact with these answers to notify a moderator that an answer should be accepted as best. Either if enough people flag it as "Best Answer" or if an answer receives enough upvotes. This will help with encouraging users to answer older questions that they may avoid because they would never be accepted if the User who asked the question isn't active anymore.
As for preventing users from asking low quality questions that is a hard line to draw. Some questions may appear low quality to someone who is experienced in the game but the person asking the question is a new player. Or English might not be their first language.
+1 vote
by (129 points)
edited by

I fixed a few the entire idea for easiness yet i understand is too long, sorry for it..
Ok i think the trouble with votes is that people doesn't feel encouraged to learn, just see this as a game to climb up, that's why people keep doing low quality content.

 Also, i know not all Members, less not all High point members could see all the questions or answers daily, neither they are forced to vote, but in a few days i have seen various question that i seem as quality one, question that not even the active community (mods, High points members) vote up, maybe they don't like it or so but imo active members should be the first person into trying to improve questions so they could give an upvote instead a downvote. to moderate imo is to prevent such low quality content, and to prevent low quality content we should encourage the high quality content and that imply too to help those low quality question which could be certainly better to improve, so community would see that as "well if i do a bad question the moderators would be there to explain me what i did wrong and could i improve" instead of "if i do low quality question i would be punished by moderators, yet i don't really understood why i did low quality content so the best thing i could do is to don't post anymore"

another thing i have seen a lot of people here (high points member) complaining about their answers not being enoughly rewarded, that's a trouble,  the fight is a trouble first because is on the middle of post, second because they focus their anger on the "other answer" i mean that's horrible. that seems like envy more than willing to help, if someone choose other answer beside yours the trouble was the author of the post not the other who answered, that discourages a lot the ppl and seems childish, we shouldn't be here fighting due that worst i have seen ppl giving down votes as punishment because that person got the best answer or so... that is what turn the whole system a trouble.

Finally i understand we can't control ppl, but we could promote the good conducts and discourage the bad things, Active members should be there to prevent such fights, to prevent abuses too. Now how this would help with the voting flagging thing?

Well members will first stop posting for fun, then what would encourage them to post is that we wouldn't punish the low quality content at the first sight, we would try to encourage members to improve their content and if they accomplish it we would up vote their questions due we find them worthy, then members would try to do good question or wouldn't do question at all. then the answers should satisfy the entire question, we would be there to encourage full answers, also to point that x or y answer if half done, finally as the idea is to give full answers we would punish those low effort answers or turn them comments. finally not rewarding and even better trying to stop those bad behaviours on comments of answers due troubles not related to the question itself.


Oh about encouraging new questions! adding daily tasks. people often try to do a lot of questions all in a row, most of those question low effort so instead giving points for doing question, doing daily task for points

Task:

Do 1 question  5 points
-remember than low effort questions could lead a punishment-

Have a daily streak of log-in 5 days 1 point. (just to encourage ppl to join, not to make this a farm).

Answer 1 question: 5 points

Etc etc etc. would be certainly low quality content but the rate would be years lower, and could be discouraged and we could try to help them improve their content.

Talking about the third point: I suggest that once the best answer were selected u couldn't edit the question.

Finally i would repass the whole thing and how work the structure just to recap what i have said:

High point members would NOW encourage others, giving downvotes when their content is low effort but can be improved, help them improve, when the member who gave the downvote find the content worthy would remove the downvote, then would UPVOTE for doing a good content (thing that actually DOESNT happen).

We as community would encourage the efforts, checking posts AND VOTING if we find it worthy. Also we would discourage fights between members that weren't meaningful (quick example that whole fight between member's answers by what answer was better).

Moderators and high points members would put their effort to countermeasure those members who are high points holders too but generate more troubles than help, specially those who use downvotes to discourage others to create content cuz "they don't like the member".

The whole Daily Task and 5 days daily streak point would only be meaningful for those who enjoy doing mission, would bring joy to open the page but wouldn't encourage them to do low effort content, and even if encourage them a few to do low effort questions, those questions would be a lot less than what are now. AND we as community would be able to encourage them to effort, yet if they don't effort anymore we would be free to downvote them as punishment for trying to provide just low effort content w/o meaning.

We need a worthy community more than a huge community, if people just come here to farm without providing quality content they are worthless, and we shouldn't hesitate discourage them to do low effort content ONCE we did our part and tried to help them improve. yet we need members who encourage them and at the moment this isn't happening, high point members doesn't encourage enough, and that's the whole trouble, they "moderate" yet they don't help others, they don't show support for others, for me someone who is there only to point your faults isn't worthy neither due for that we have actual moderators. 

So imo, if we want to turn this an active and worthy community we have to get the trouble by the root and the root of this trouble is that there's not sense into providing quality content if people here doesn't encourage it neither support it, and that's community fault. I remember when i joined this system and the whole idea was "lets encourage others to do good things, good content, etc" all the day i saw old members discussing to help, commenting to encourage others improve their content, or even to prevent a flag on their question, that's how is supposed to be, but for a community like that work we need:

Common sense more than automatized systems.

Worthiness into helping others (that require common sense from mods to see who actually encourage a better community)

Ways to encourage people to join the whole community as a member and not as a farmer.

More reason to the members to be active part of the community due are members who give life to this community and this page. not neccessarily with points but the whole idea is to encourage them to be here HELPING or MODERATING or doing something more constantly and not being here only to try get points.

in the end, when i joined here was the community who were going to create a meaningful ecosystem where community itself punish the bad behaviour and that was the whole point on getting points, so far i know that didn't change so we shouldn't hesitate to stop the bad behaviour from the root, and we should start being that live ecosystem with active community helping, not people specting to get a lot of points to be above the rules, the rules are there to be followed by members and even if is a high member who break the rule, we as community should have the right to punish the bad behaviour.

I know that im taking longer than... but at this rate i need to give examples:

-low  points member do low effort question:
Community: -comment the issue-
-LP Member improves
Community: -rewards good content.
-LP Member doesn't improve, even complain or attack:
Community: punish with downvote such behaviour UNTIL that LP member reconsider
-LP Member reconsider and retract on its wrong behaviour but people even so punish him with downvotes. (probably forgot)
Moderator: Restart the votes on that post.
-LP Member suddenly receives a lot of downvotes on their account or in an specific post w/o ANY reason.
Moderator: takes action (review the trouble, if needed talks with the members and if needed punish).

-LP Member is receiving power abuse from High Points Member.
Moderator and/or Other HP members: Punish the bad behaviour.

-HP Member provides overall bad behaviour BUT doesn't break any explicit rule:
Moderator: require using common sense to PUNISH the bad behaviour. Also if needed create a new rule about possible power abuse or trouble with wrongly use of moderation tools.

-Community discuss off topic, troubles not related with the question or similar:
-HP community and Moderators: Use the common sense to stop the fight and if they continue with the bad behaviour PUNISH the bad behaviour (members with downvotes on the troubles or flags and Moderation with points or what were needed).

ETC ETC ETC.

We don't need rules for every issue that shows up (even if rules are good), we need more common sense and more authority.
Neither we need high points members who abuse from rules, if they provide a bad behaviour they need to be punished with points, they are supposed to be worthy for the community and help it, not people who avoid/break rules and we should allow them be cuz are high points members and there's nothing we could do.

by (105 points)
edited by
+1
I agree with some points you mention in your answer, and decided to drop comment about points by logging in. I just do not like it- there is no need to take it personally. I am finding it as a another loophole. For me it contradiction- oh we raised the points to get an owl, but hey you can also get this points only by logging in. Additionally people will argue- oh i did worthy comment and it did not apply blah blah

My opinion is not issue with the system, the issue is- the envy and arrogance of the people and people themselves. Jealousy. "I did not get upvote so I will not give one". Many of the votes for questions and answers are given as "vote for vote" basis.
If you really want to remove points for questions- remove points for answers as well. I saw far more abuse on the answers rather then question. I will not describe the process as it will give ideas to the wrong people.
Then if you say people overstimate the power of points given by posting question and they does not have huge impact on contribution in whole-  so why you so insisting on removing them?  I really think there are bigger issues then "question farmers".

I really want to know who in your eyes are farmers? Please tell me it is me :D
 


Shawtay is Queen of TibiaQa. I can even say " TibiaQa is her second home". She does it because she loves it. It is clear. She is active and she is enjoying it. I proposed her as community manager as she the website and rules very well. And in my opinion she deserves second owl. Now I am not asking to enforce my opinion or every point which I can bring or propose. There is owner of the website who will decides it.
Now let's have a look on other users who got an owl - are they active? No. Only few of them sometimes visit the site. That will happen with future users also. The question is-  How to make them log in more often? How to make them read content and vote on some?- This is why we need community manager to engage, motivate and to promote website for new users in healthy way :)
by (129 points)
+1
the thing is that you again don't take the whole thing, you see the loophole but i want to explain you that the point is to prevent abuses from "loopholes"

u say
"the owl takes more in points"
i say
we now would have more task to people do daily

u say
"they could abuse from doing low effort answers"
i say
"we as community would be there to downvote them if we use common sense to see that doesn't contribute at all beside what have been said or is chit-chatting"

u say
"the trouble is envy and arrongance"
i say
"yeah im more than agreed with you, but there are some other troubles too as exists people who doesn't effort into doing the proper research.

u say
"People doesn't know how to vote properly due envy"
i say
"Again, im agreed but we have to attack that trouble as community, having SERIOUS high point active members, and those who are here to don't contribute should not be considered for modding, of course, we have to understand that not everyone would agree with everything, but im totally agreed that exists a lot of people here which doesn't effort into encouraging, just want to flag, get points and say how so good they are without really contributing to anything  else.

u say
"there is no need to take it personally"
i say
"im agreed that i get angry due your comment, but not cuz i take it personally, it is just that you don't read all and reject just cuz saying that i would create a trouble which i fixed with another part of the thread"

u say
"i really want to know who in your eyes are farmers"
and i finally say
"i don't care who is the farmer. i don't care if is you or elliotris or shawtay or ffofp, what i do care is that the fact that exists people doing low effort questions is undeniable, and there is no actual way to prevent such question tagging them as "low effort" due there the common sense could be too rude or too light, one question could be seen as "too easy" and someone could be there actually looking for an answer to such question cuz legitimally he found all the answers he got aren't consistent enough or aren't official,

u say
"how to make them log in more often"
i literally gave u simple way to produce a need in the human brain for "accomplish" someething
then u say
"nope"
and that simply discourages me to keep trying to explain to you.

Btw, u could see on top 10, i took shawtay due is the most active member of this community talking about points
if she doesn't have enough questions to question points be meaningfully, no one else would have.

The thing is, that people anyway could see them as an easy way to get at least 1 point, disregard if their question would work or not and that's a trouble.
by (761 points)
edited by
+1
Fun fact, I was a community manager for a couple of weeks but I decided to stop since it was a lot for me to handle and I wasn't very good at it. I barely have enough time to just log in to Tibia and do my dailies lately :( But thank you for your kind words though. TibiaQA is great and everyone is Kings and Queens here though. I'm no better than anyone else just because I spent x amount of time on the fansite. I feel like a lot of people know more than me, especially when it comes to bosses, hunting, team things, and everything new since I haven't enjoyed the last few updates. So just keep browsing through questions and make sure they are all up to date and just have fun. In terms of the past couple of months, I probably am not the most active but in terms of years possibly.
by (129 points)
+1
yeah i just used you as example due you are the one with the highest ammount of points (literally u have double points than 2nd place haha), and even so just right now (this week) you have been more active and helpful than 60% (even more) of the leaderboard.

Nothing to complain about neither pointing at anyone, the idea is to highlight that if being the higher points member you don't have enough questions done to make questions points meaningful, then probably no one else would do it. in the other hand, could be use to encourage misbelief. just that.
...